Women in GovTech an interview with Katie Patrick


In our second episode of our Women in GovTech series we interview Katie Patrick, Environmental engineer, designer and author of How to Save the World. In this interview Senior Associate in PUBLIC's Ventures team, Lichelle Wolmarans speaks to Katie about her journey from environmental engineer to gamification evangelist, her concept of 'Fitbit for the Planet' and her advice for women starting a career in GovTech to try and change the world. Watch the video or read the interview below., everybody, welcome to another episode of Women in GovTech. I'm Lichelle, a Senior Associate here at PUBLIC. Today we have Katie Patrick, an environmental engineer and designer, talking to us a bit about gamification and all the work she's doing around environmental sustainability. Katie, would you like to say hello, and maybe introduce yourself?Hi Lichelle, and thank you for having me. I'm an environmental engineer and I do a very unique style of design, which is what I call 'Fitbit for the Planet' design, which is looking at real time feedback loops of environmental data. And then looking at how to really augment that with behavioural science and gamification, to really get people to act. That's what I focus on, we do a lot of work in the environment and we don't tend to actually really focus on getting people to do the actions as part of it. So that's what I'm really passionate about.Cool. Do you mind telling us a bit about that journey from how you went from being an environmental engineer to thinking about gamification, and incorporating game design, in your work around climate action?Yeah, it was a bit of a weaving tale. But I really wish that all the stuff that I know now, like I really wish that I knew about it when I was just studying environmental engineering when I was 18, or 19. Luckily, people can look at the work I've done in my book, and they can learn it all now. So it wouldn't take 20 years like it took me but I studied environmental engineering because I was a passionate environmentalist, as a as a teenager. And as a young person and had an interest in building eco cities was always interested in urban sustainability and the kind of like the machinery around around that. And I ended up getting a job in commercial property doing greenstar LEED certifications for commercial buildings, the green building industry was extremely nice. And then the Green Building Council had only just started, was just getting off and running. The property industry was not accustomed to any doing anything green at all, it was completely foreign. And I had been there was one architect called Kenneth Yang, who did these really futuristic biophilic cities. And I was just fascinated by that. I was like, Oh, my God, this is what I want to do. I want to build these incredible eco cities was like hanging gardens and vegetable that hanging off the roof and like sky boulevards, and trees on the type of buildings. But it was so out there, like literally nobody was doing that type of design at all. And the only job that you could really get was doing energy efficiency audits of office buildings, and I thought I would just die of boredom, like I could not stand the idea that I would just had this incredibly vibrant imagination. And all I could do with just romney's energy efficiency audits, so that Korea really just lasted a couple of years. And then I started a media company because I wanted to rebrand sustainability. Back then we're talking about the early 2000s. It was really dorky and uncool, like there wasn't the fashionable organic food brands and the, you know, organic, ethical fashion labels like it was just scientists and birdwatchers and the kind of deep hippie Birkenstock scene, like fashion and sustainability had not come together at all. So that was like a real problem. And we're trying to try to sell the idea of like climate change. And the circular economy is like it had a terrible brand. So I started a media company wanting to rebrand that. So I looked at what Vogue magazine did and why is magazine and things that have these incredibly strong brands. And I created a media company, and we did the magazine, trying to rebrand that, and I think we really did in Australia really push the culture forward in making sustainability fashionable. But then the media landscape changed and doing something that was print, taste and content based, was not a viable business model so much anymore, and everything was moving to the Silicon Valley. We've got to start it app, app app, app startup, startup, startup tech tech tech. So I moved to Silicon Valley and really took a deep dive into the technology. And as I was trying to figure out, well, how do I actually make change happen? I really want to show the numbers. I think if I had a shower and the shower could show me the amount of water that I was having in the shower, like I think that would be pretty motivating. I would be inspired to improve that number. And could I get a number for the amount of carbon dioxide from electricity My house is putting out and maybe I could just figure out what the air pollution was on my street. And if I could get these numbers. This was at the time when the Facebook the red dot notification was new. So this sounds like it's a long time ago. But it actually wasn't that long ago. It was only eight years ago that the like button is that crazy that the like button was invented. I was at the Facebook conference in San Francisco and they launched the like button right? Not that long ago. So these little red things are fairly recent. So I was thinking, Well, how do we do this for green data? And then I looked into it I realised that we could not get the data feeds anyway. There were no API's, like I couldn't get my own data from my house, I couldn't get it from my city, were even looking at, like urban forest cover, like water quality data. And I was just like, Oh my God, we have this massive, massive gap in getting good quality, real time environmental data. Because I just want a red dot notification, just like Facebook gives me and we do not have the technical infrastructure to deliver this. And that was so fascinating to me. And then to figure out how we would design this, well, how would we design it to change? What colour would we make it maybe we could compare people to each other, maybe we could use game design. And I realised that there was this whole field of behavioural science and game design around habit formation and trying to get people to do stuff. And that that was an entire field, I'd never heard of it. So I really went on this eight year journey of being fascinated by trying to understand the data science understand the behavioural science and the user interaction design. But how you would design this data to really get people to change. And I read a lot of academic papers, a lot of books. And I'm just as fascinated if not more fascinated, that that time like the love affair is just getting stronger. And I collected so much information that was so profound, I was just so amazed about how powerful this stuff could be. I was just sort of like rambling about it at parties, like oh, you have to lose, you have to look at this. And you know, you really need to be doing it this way. I ended up putting it together in a book, which was quite a lot of work. But now I have a book that's called How to save the world that details all of that evidence and all of that studies. So you can just be like, just read that chapter. This is, you know, example, how feedback loops or smiling faces work or colour works, you know, in terms of how to fix behaviour. I put that book together. And now I work on various startup concepts and do consulting and work with groups, you know, including like the United Nations, of how to implement these systems. How do we use real time data feedback loops? And how do we design it in a way that actually gets people to do stuff? That's the hurdle. Like, if you're not getting people to change at the end of the day, whether it's governments or individuals or corporations, you know, everything we're doing is is waste.The field of Behavioural Science is so broad, what made you settle on game design specifically?Gamification is just l toolkit of behavioural prompts. Like I didn't even necessarily have to use that word game design, gamification, but it has a particular amount of tools in the toolkit that are very powerful and salient when you're trying to take people through a journey. So the behavioural science to get people to do environmentally friendly stuff is a little bit broader than than just that. So we needed to do all of it. But there are some really, just very obvious and very clear and fun things that you can implement that you usually forgotten about, like just like simple, like progress tracking, like we're starting here, we're trying to get here, let's put five steps 12345. And then we give people a goal, your goal is to go from one to five. And then once you get to five, we're gonna give you like a smiley face to retake or some sort of reward system or an animation. Like, it's just like a really simple like game design framework. But it taps into these like core mechanisms that we have in the human mind that the brain craves to have goals and to achieve goals and to get rewarded for goals. It's just how we're built. Like, if I have a goal to get a cup of coffee, I'm gonna feel annoyed if I don't complete my task, get a sense of completion, which is the coffee we're constantly selling goals for us, selves, little goals and big goals. And we want a sense of completion, a sense of reward. And when I mean reward, I don't mean you know, money or free pizza, I mean, just a visual signal that it's been rewarded. So it's a very basic framework that you can bring into trying to get people to do stuff. And we don't do it in sustainability. It's like not a hobby ever, ever done and it can make an enormous, enormous difference. And I also like that it brings a really fun and creative lens. That the the the narrative around sustainability has been this sense of like Doom ish urgency, like you must act now out of this huge moral and ethical calling, which is a big weight to put on people like now, you know, they have to manage your own life and all your problems. Now you have divided the world. It's like, it's not really that exciting. And there's also another narrative of sacrifice, like we must give up. Yeah, I don't think that particularly interesting or powerful narratives where as you bring it as a game, like or just a game ish journey. No, it's like fun. It's like we're gonna do this fun thing. We're gonna do a challenge. It's gonna be like a 30 day plastic free challenge, and you'll be able Meet people. And here's the character and some cool colours. You know, I really love the idea of re explaining. And it's been a core theme throughout my whole life, my whole career is trying to rebrand and re explain sustainability is this fun, wonderful adventure, it's what I've always been doing. Because it's for me, like, I think it's fun to do a 30 day plastic free challenge. So I don't do it, I do miss reasons, I just do it cuz I think it's cool. And I'm trying to I'm trying to just visually convey that sense of sort of coolness and fun and adventure through all of these processes.You use this great analogy in all your work which is 'Fitbit for the Planet'. So this idea of tracking our progress and adjusting our behaviour in response to that, can you give us some practical examples of where this is being put to use just to make it a bit more tangible for people watching?Well, Fitbit for the Planet design, which is the whole concept is using a real time feedback, which you get straightaway, like, you get a feedback loop. And then there's a behavioural prompt. So data and behaviour together. Well Fitbit for the planet design, it's not a phrase that I already know, that I coined, it's sort of been going around a little a little bit. Nowhere really like it has not properly taken off the in air pollution. And there's an interesting company called a climber, which is doing sort of working with Google to drive over cities and to get really detailed air pollution. Data, there are necklaces you can wear that show air pollution data, when people are walking around to all the people that are wearing the kind of signalling, signalling that there's a lot, there's a company called Planet Labs, which photographs the whole earth every single day. So there's the various data systems going around there. Also, there's bike cameras, I think I've seen them in London, you have those bike counters that count people when they ride their bikes past. That's an example just using real time data, displaying it publicly in a way that we hope encourages action. So you starting to see these things starting to kind of starting to happen. The way I've been doing it is with a in a practical sense is with a project called energy lolipop, where we get the carbon emissions from the grid or the organisation that manages the grid data. And they do have this data, but it's kind of stuck deep in the website. And it's just a black and white chart, it's not very fun to look at how the anybody looks at it. But it's really the most interesting or relevant. If you're working on climate change chart that they have in their whole website, it's just what's the net co2 of the grid at any point in time, it updates every five minutes. So it sets up in real time, it's not a PDF report that comes out once a year. It's real time data. And so we designed it into a Chrome extension that you just can click on it, and then it shows you the data, but it shows you with a colour and with a chart. So it's just been had a facelift, getting it to look nice, and just adding this colour. It's like a core user interaction gamification technique, you know, like red is bad. oranges, medium green is good credit, a beautiful colour scale for and so it's really obvious to see that and I've also trying to put it outdoors as a public life. So it's not something you have to actively click on to look, you can walk out in the street, and then you can see it. So we see. We see the weather and we see the stock market everywhere. There are digital screens everywhere, showing us that we already know what the weather is. And I don't know, I don't own any public shares for the stock market's not very interesting to me. Something like climate change affects everybody we should I believe that we should have co2 everywhere, the same way that we have this type of data. So I'm trying to signal that in real time. So people can connect with the idea that the cities and the towns and the houses are making emissions, and that we're all kind of our job collectively, like we've got one Fitbit for everybody. Like we're all trying to get this like carbon Fitbit to go down. And so that brings that kind of group, gamification, psychology, that you're not just gamifying your own life personally, but we're also trying to gamify the whole city. And so you've got individual change, but we're also collectively trying to change it as a system. So bringing the gamification design, the Fitbit for the planet designed for various levels of state, city, neighbourhood and individual and kind of nesting them together is something that I'm, I'm very excited about to see where that can go. But it's a very nascent space. I mean, that's why I talk about it a lot. Because I think the more I can get out there and talk about it, people, the penny goes off, and they're just like, yeah, obviously, we should see the data everywhere, shouldn't we? And hopefully, I can encourage more people, you know, who will vote who are involved in change to start thinking that way?What are the key challenges at the moment in accessing this data and how should cities be thinking about improving their data regimes to support the type of projects you want to see come to life?Oh, well, that is my big dream - to be able to to get good quality API's of this data, so I can build these interfaces that really get people to change. And I'm, I'm quite stymied by what I can do by a lack of the infrastructure. And it's not going to happen from the free market, it really needs to. And the only way this can happen is through governments and utilities, making the data public. So if there are any climate action plans, any urban plans between governments and cities, industries, and not industry groups and not for profits, they really need to have one branch of what they do, which is focused on a mandatory disclosure of data mandatory, meaning the government says it has to happen, like the government says that California has to put out its carbon emissions every five minutes. And it does, because the government makes them do it right. And not every grid. That's, that's happening. So the government has to mandate the industry actually releases this data, then there's another two things about the data is that it needs to be geographically granular. And it has to be real time, we've had some progress in the building industry, where they the government actually does mandate that every single building and it's transparent with their address, commercial buildings has to put their kilowatt hours out, right, and they put it out in a spreadsheet once a year. So it's better, it's better than nothing, you can actually go and download the spreadsheet. And then you can like make a map if you want. But once a year, Excel spreadsheet isn't a mechanism that's going to drive change that what we need is a real time feed of every single one of those buildings. That's time tagged, that we can search for, like that software infrastructure needs to be built. So it needs to be real time, it needs to be geographically granular, for example, we have the carbon emissions for all of California. But we don't it doesn't break down any more than California. So I live in a small city called Mountain View, it's where Google's headquarters are in Silicon Valley. I don't know what mountain whose emissions are I know all of California, but I can't get Los Angeles, I can't get San Francisco, it really needs to start, let alone just my own neighbourhood I can't even get the big ones. So the government's need to implement in all their strategies, a requirement for the data to be mandatory, the data to be technically built in a way that has an API interface that people can get to, it's real time. And it's geographically granular, there's not just one number for millions and millions of people. And to really understand that that's an essential part of building what I'm calling the nudges sphere, that you don't need to just have policy that tells people what to do, you're kind of like building an upward spiral. So the government can make this data available to kind of like making the steps of the upward spiral. And then people like me, and people I know who are working on change can be like, oh, wow, cool, we can start using all this data to start coming up with new ideas to influence people at various levels of individual to policy to people who do this full time as their job giving people the tools to make change happen. And yeah, so I'm, you know, going around trying to beat the drum for this type of thinking to try and get this requirement of good quality data API is happening, when all these top level schemes are happening. But it's quite sad. It's very little known about this mandatory disclosure and public data, very little known about concept, but it's one of the most powerful ways to drive change. And one of the easiest, we tried people, organisations, for years have been trying to get a carbon tax through carbon tax would be very good at creating change. But these things are not getting through government, not at the level that they're going to do a little bit, but really not at the scale we need. Whereas a mandatory disclosure of data is much friendlier to get through the government process. Because we're not taxing anyone, we're not really telling anybody what they can and can't do. We're just requiring the data to be out there. And this has been a more preferred style of policy for governments because you don't need to have a big fight to get it to happen.Alongside mandatory disclosure, are there any types of data that we're simply not collecting at all, let alone disclosing that you think we should be focusing on?I haven't seen anything that has not been collected at all. It's more than it's collected in a way that's too crude. Like, it's like, for example, with air pollution that EPA collects the data just they have one sensor, and then they get that one bit of data for the whole city. So you can have one pocket of the city that has terrible air pollution, and then one over here that has really good evolution, it's just not showing that kind of granularity. So or that it's, you know, like a PDF for volunteers collected and then they put it in a spreadsheet. It's more just that it's not it's not being collected that it's being collected to and frequently is not real time. It's not in a machine readable format that people can develop applications on. Or it's just not granular enough. So it's more than it's just a bit primitive, rather than it's not being collected, or it's not being implemented in a way that's really maximising the behavioural effect, there was this really impressive project done in in California, where they worked with Berkeley, the California Air Resources Board, funded Berkeley labs, very smart people through this really impressive project where they worked out the the darkness of the lightness of every roof, because dark roads get hotter, and they increase the urban heat island effect. really complicated project, super impressive. But I'm not sure if it ever went out anywhere, like I think it just sits in their website, it's, it's actually really hard to reach, like I looked at the website multiple times. And then I was looking through things looking for someone's contact details, find is tightly linked at the bottom of the site. And I'm like, wow, this is really, really cool. So with that project, they obviously funded the technical side of it to do something really impressive. But then, and this is where it comes in with government policy, the people who were planning out this policy, or this RFP, they didn't put an equal portion of planning or budget into Well, what's going to be the community based social marketing outreach plan, what's going to be the behaviour change plan, to actually get people to change their roofs, from dark roofs, to like roofs. So really cool projects just sort of sitting there without any mechanism for actually implementing it. And I see that happen a lot of times where people or researchers or organisations will do some really interesting piece of data research without putting an equivalent amount. And it really is going to take a lot of intellectual effort and research effort into the how you actually get people to adopt this stuff in the real world.I think that's something you put a lot of effort into, you know, bridging that gap between academia, industry implementation of sort of research, maybe it's a good time to talk about your podcast and the people that you interview there and some of the topics you discuss.What I see going on with sustainability people, people who work in government, and industry on this is that we know what we need to do. Everybody understands that we need circular economy and more solar and EBS. And we're all really educated on that stuff. But we don't really know that how, like, okay, okay, you need to now make sure you need to get 10,000 homes on solar in the next year. How are you going to do it? That's the bit we're really stuck. And that's a bit with the behavioural psychology comes in. And we are not versed on behavioural Psychology at all, like I only started learning this stuff, what, five or six years ago. And I talked about it all the time. And I asked people to say, Have you heard of environmental psychology? Have you heard of social norms? Have you heard of this thing called the value action gap? And pretty, very rarely does anybody Has anybody heard of it. So there is this treasure trove of knowledge with people who study environmental psychology, in academia, they're studying like these nuances. Like, if you show somebody a message that says, you'll save so much co2, and then they'll test if you do this action, and then they'll test you, you'll save so much to your to it, and you'll save so much money for the testing. So you're two against money. So which one works better, right? And then I put them together, and then they say, you'll save this much co2 and this much money. And you would think, Well, obviously, the co2 and the money together is like more of a stronger argument. Okay. So when you put the two together, it cancels the effect, because this thing happens. It's called like the crowd effect, or the cognitive load effect. As soon as you put multiple numbers in front of people, they get brain scrambled, and they shut down. Because it creates more effort, right? You would also think that maybe the money one works the best. But it doesn't, the zero to one actually works the best because, you know, now people care more about co2 than they do about, you know, small amounts of money. So you've got people that are actually really studying this stuff. And it's a really simple mistake to make, you wouldn't intuitively know that you should really not mix a financial message with an environmental message in the same thing, but yet people are copywriting. Graphic designers and sustainability managers are putting out material and or they're saying things like using the wrong type of social norms. They're saying that, you know, 98% of people litter or use too much plastic but that's telling you that is normal. What you really want to do is phrase a social norm in terms of saying an increasing number of people are quitting plastic and using reusable water bottles because we naturally unconsciously imitate them. Breathing with tea. And then there's people that really do they do test cases, we'll get like 100 people in a study and they'll try out these messages. And they'll find these very subtle nuances that when you understand the theory, it's quite obvious. And this stuff is such a big deal. It is, I think, the most important thing for sustainability people to understand and start practising. And that we can get halfway there just by implementing good psychology principles, of which gamification is a part of that. And so I interviewed these people for my podcast, researchers from you know, top university labs from Harvard, and MIT and Stanford University. And I asked them all about this stuff. And it's like the most incredible treasure trove of wisdom. Like, every time I do an interview, I'm just like, Oh, my God, I understand the world. So much better. Now. It's really incredible. And it's just not getting out there. Like, I am literally the only person in the world who goes through these papers. And that puts them into a podcast interviews and blogs and tries to disseminate it through the sustainability community. And I should be the only one like, really need more people researching this and sharing it. So it's a it's common, it's common knowledge.You're an environmental engineer, you're also a founder, you've written a book, you run design sprints, you have a podcast, you convene a community? How do you manage to do all of that? How do you fit all of that into a 24 hour day?Well, I mean, I do a lot of things. But it also means they move slowly. So I like to call them simultaneous snails. So each one moves, moves slowly, it's like a snail race. I think one thing that I do, that is where all this work started to come from, just in terms of like, practically being able to put it out there. And that I don't see as a, as a lifestyle pattern that many people in sort of engineering or sustainability do, it's something that you'll see more in the in the arts, or in the creative fields, is I try to ruthlessly and I spent several years doing this I've backed off a little bit from it now is identifying time to do your work, you know, what you could call a creative genius zone, like what is my creative genius zone, and isolating time like going to the gym, like, if you were training for the Olympics, you would get up at four o'clock in the morning, whatever time and then you would go to Olympic Training, and then in that time, you would be doing the absolute best you could do like you would have no distractions, I am completely focused on doing the best athletic work that I can do. So what I do is apply that to try to do the best creative work I can do. And that's not necessarily just doing design work, the creative work could also be writing a book or just getting out to people like doing marketing or doing a podcast, you know, interviewing the academics I interview, that's my kind of creative work, and just carving it out and not getting it interfered with by like, Oh, I need to go to the bank, or I need to check my emails, or I need to clean the house or I need to be like productive or make money or, you know, do efficiency hacks. Like, I think the primary thing that really motive motive, like the primary thing that's valuable to get out of yourself with your work is that that sort of like deep creative work that only you can do that nobody else can do. If somebody else can do it, you probably it's probably not your creative genius. And when I practice doing that every day, it creates a very rapid amount of very high quality, interesting work to people. And it's not necessarily all in one direction, it doesn't. It's not like a exact road with a goal. It's close, like it tends to go a few different directions. But it does mean when I'm doing that every day, like the way an Olympic athlete would do it, there's just a lot of really interesting, good quality sort of tentacles going out all the time. And then when you do that, over the years, it kind of builds into, you know, a reasonable amount of work that's very good and very interesting. And it starts to get a pattern to it. So I don't think I'm any necessarily like more or less productive through the rest of the day. And I'm just trying to like, you know, get things done and get on top of everything. But I think if you do carve out that very like core, creative genius, so like what is my best creative skill? How can I best creatively apply myself to the world, like if there was one thing I could do that would really impact the world in a way that's the most wonderful, creative, interesting, curious thing I could do. And you just sit down, I got two hours, I'm just going to do it to see what comes out. That's where the really special work comes out. That's where all my ideas and stuff comes from doing that practice. And that's the thing that I the best life advice I can ever give to anybody. Like It doesn't really matter whether you like I don't know, pay off a mortgage or not, you know, I think it matters that you get that out of view. And that will be the kind of Cornerstone, the kind of heart of your whole sort of career and life.I really like what you said about if someone else can do it, it's probably not your creative genius. I think that's good. And lastly, before we round off, so this series is called Women in GovTech. I'm just wondering if you have any advice for women trying to get into technology or trying to change the world?Oh, yeah, well, if you want to get into technology, like you have to do it, you know, don't be afraid of it. I was terribly afraid of technology and bad at it. You know, early in, in life, like I didn't learn how to use Excel until I was like, I don't know, like 23 or 24 years old. Like that was like through my whole engineering degree in high school. Like I didn't do it. I didn't learn how to write code until I was in my 30s. I didn't even really know how to use like InDesign or Photoshop very well until I could use it but not that well until just like a few years ago. And, you know, you've got to dive in and you've got to do it. You got to do the technical tutorials, do the online coding workshop, get a soldering iron and go to sparkfun and buy parts and figure out how to put them together. Like you can learn robotics and computer programming, and video making podcasting. Like none of the technology is unachievable. People have learned it, there's zillions of tutorials around Google is there you can type in anything like literally you can make anything that you want. I wanted to do a high quality, high resolution photographs of urban heat islands. And I was speaking to all these like GIS companies, and they're really expensive really didn't want to talk to me cuz it wasn't important enough. 100,000 $300,000 and then I was like, this is just BS. Like I live in Silicon Valley around all these hackers people do DIY stuff. So I just googled, like, how to attach a thermal camera to an aircraft. I'm like, I got to be able to like hire the plane. Anyway, and I figured it out. I was like, this is how you hire the plane. This is how you hire a pilot. This is the attachment device that you did. I talked to the guy who sells the attachments like many times he explained it to me. I spoke to FLIR cameras. I'm like, Well, how do we get the camera? Which one do we use, I learned that there was like flightplan software and I realised I could do the whole thing for like, under $5,000. Like, I realised that they learned the camera got for free. I just was like, this thing that's so like hard and unachievable. That's really expensive, like special skill. I was like, if I can bake a cake, because there's if you can bake a cake, and you can follow the instructions, you can follow the instructions to do any kind of technology. So don't be afraid of really diving into the deep technical skills are completely learnable no matter how bad you think you are at the start, you can, you can do it. And so it's really just a mind space thing that you can solve it. So don't let the mind space, that technology is hard, and you can't do it, get in the way just dive in. And then you realise that it's actually you know, a lot of this stuff is actually quite achievable if you just focus on it. And if you can make friends with a few computer programmers to help you along the way you can get maybe halfway there by yourself and then you'll come up with some roadblocks and then you call on your friends and you're like the can't quite figure out this bit and then they'll help you that you know, your friends aren't going to do like a $20,000 worth of work for you but they will help you through these little hurdles. And that's what I do. I try to do stuff myself and then I go to my my nerd network my notice here and get them to help me over little hurdles, which they're happy to do. And then I you know, do do the next bit and you can do incredible things if you apply yourself like that.Okay, I think that's a great point to round it off. Thank you, Katie so much! For everyone who's watching or listening you can check out her podcast and book "How to Save the World" here.


Sep 20, 2021